A-fucking-men, brother.

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um, I seriously was gonna write a-fucking-men but now I feel like a dumbass for doing it second.

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Yep. I'll repost this if ya don't mind, right above my own rant.

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Go for it.

I really "enjoyed" yours as well.

I should make a list of links that people should go to, I've seen so many...

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Well, I ruined my objectivity with my bashing at the end there. Still...

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JFC!

Am I reading this thing right?

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Yep.
Do some digging and you'll find more details.

A good place to look right now is http://prisonplanet.com

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Yes in fucking deed. This, combined with the death of habeas corpus (which I did my own thing about on my site, probably pissing off all the people who only go there to read about wonky sleep schedules) has got me verily vibrating with venom. (Alliteration intentional, as is the comic-book reference.)

Next to that, and this, the cute little underhanded move to strip away most people's ability to challenge violations of the separation of church and state is just not fucking funny anymore.

Absolutely do not shut the fuck up. Blogging is just practicing your lines. You will be called to the stage eventually, so speak loudly and know your shit! Cuz Uncle Drinky says so. ;)

-PD

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Absolutely do not shut the fuck up. Blogging is just practicing your lines. You will be called to the stage eventually, so speak loudly and know your shit!

Remind me to quote that when I make my post about how to make changes.

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Well, shit. Even Arlen Specter thought this was a bad idea.

I actually had quite a difficult time even finding a news service carrying anything about this at the moment, since they all seem dazzled by the pieces of tinfoil that are the hijacker video and the sex scandal.

This whole thing makes me even more nervous than I usually am, being that I'm in a special kind of limbo here right now: I'm in the country by the virtue of marriage and the good grace of the Attorney General, but at the moment I don't have a green card or temporary work permit, and a couple of letters from the USCIS aside, I can't really prove my legality here at the moment.
This whole 'torture bill', of course, effects that little, but the whole thing kind of jives against almost everything I've ever learned about the foundation of US law. And every time anyone tries to criticise, the opposition is always the same: 'We need this in place to safeguard our country. If we don't have this bill passed, it makes us more susceptible to terrorist attack.'
Zuh? I'm no genius, but I fail to see how provisions for trying and punishing people will help to stop future attacks. Except oh wait, yes, now I remember. This administration fervently believes that torture yields useful information that will help stop attacks. Ignoring the fact that torture yields only people telling you what they think you want to hear, and the largely autonomous nature of any groups of people wanting to attack this country.

I really can't work this out. Do they genuinely believe that this bill will do what they think it will, or are they just doing it for no reason beyond the accumulation of power? In other words, are they stupid or just corrupt?

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I can't even imagine being in your situation. Do you anybody who's going through the same sort of thing?

As for whether or not they think they can make it stick this time, I have no idea. The last bill they passed like this had similar parts struck down by the Supreme Court, but a lot of them just got put back in. As such, I'm voting for Cunning and Corrupt.

America's turning into a new and very bizarre type of isolationist country. We seem to want to protect ourselves from an influx of "for'ners" while at the same time attempting to subjegate the rest of the world.

It's a concept that is fascinating to think about but makes you sick if you REALLY think about.

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The saving grace of my particular situation is that a) I'm white and b) I'm from England, which is a fairly friendly country to the US, both of which combine to probably mean I have a lot less to worry about than if I was darker-skinned or from a less-friendly country.

England itself is going through the same thing of wanting to cut down on immigration, which has always seemed a bit odd to me, since we start counting 'English history' from 1066, when the French invaded and kicked off the whole mass immigration thing that made England so culturally diverse. A lot of the current atmosphere there is made of worry that's been whipped up by scaremongers who like to blame the country's problems on Muslims and Gypsies and whoever else doesn't look right to them. A big thing recently has been the idea that Turkey joining the European Union will mean the EU will become much more friendly to Islamic cultures, which is somehow being seem as a terrible thing. At the last election, the Racist Fucking Shitbag Party British National Party pretty much ran entirely on the platform of 'We'll kick the darkies out'. And, scarily, in some areas they're making gains.

Much like here, a lot of the non-terrar immigration debate is founded on the specious logic that immigrants are both taking our jobs and also claiming unemployment benefits. And like here, the truth is that immigrants are largely unskilled and do the kind of jobs most people won't do otherwise, and unemployment benefit fraud makes up a tiny amount of where tax money is going. Every time the newspapers get up in arms about underfunded hospitals, or schools, they shouldn't be looking at benefit fraud but rather at the massive budgets afforded to the defence industry in the last five years. But anyone who does accuse the governments of giving misproportionately to the defence industry is usually branded a peacenik who wants to let terrars overrun the world and trample freedom in the mud.

The difference between our two countries is, however, that America is by and large much more politically aware. Unfortunately, it's politically aware in a very polarising way, where people tend to be either extreme right-wingers who want the President to have unlimited power to play Jack Bauer with anyone darker than George Hamilton, or else extreme left-wingers who oppose anything the President says because he's the President.

The one thing America seems really good at, at least from where I'm sitting, is managing to have a Supreme Court that likes to err on the side of liberty. The new bill, I believe, doesn't make provision to throw out habeus corpus in the case of American citizens, even if they are regarded unlawful enemy combatants. It's just the non-US citizens who need to seriously worry if they get brought up on anything under this.

On a personal level, it's not really effecting me too greatly. I'm less worried about actual government regulation right now and more worried about individual people: for example, until I have my green card, I'm not planning on flying out of the country, because the only thing that lets me back in without a visa then is a form letter from the Attorney General's office, and if immigration is in a bad mood that day I could find myself having to repeat the whole immigration process.
I still have a kind of irrational nervous fear that something I post online will catch the attention of the wrong person, and I'll find myself having to account for having a political opinion...

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I have been following it on NPR. I would reccomend going to their website for updates.

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But, Ben, if we challenge him, how is he gonna finish out his dream of building an empire???

While we don't have to fear him as a Stalin, Hitler, or even Cyrus, wait... maybe we do. Tons of needless killing? Check. Invading helpless countries and taking them over? Check. Blaming God and freedom for all of it? Check. Reinstating the Inquisition behind closed doors? Checkarooni. Ruling his "people" with an iron fist, killing those who disagree or cause problems? Fucking check. Rallying the mindless drones to attack the everyday man whom he doesn't bother trying to reach? MotherFucking Check.

Hm... I'm seeing a pattern here? And so you have to ask yourself... What Would Jaros Do?

Us... well we're learning other languages and getting ready to leave. Here in this little tiny town, there are very few places you can speak honestly, where the one you're speaking to doesn't have a shotgun already aimed at you and a police force that'll look the other way. We have to whisper. But we're certainly doing it.

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I just mentioned to jimmahgee--a Filthy Englander--that I'm beginning to think this who Revolutionary War thing was a bad idea.

I wonder what living abroad forever would be like.

And then I remember that these fuckers would still be ruling my life.

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"If we don't pass this law to protect our nation, then the terrorists win."

Oddly enough, when I was preparing my lecture notes for next week's lecture on "Common Fallacies" that one, word for word, showed up under the heading of "Slippery Slope." Similar Republican Rhetoric showed up under "Straw Man", "Ad Hominim", and other such fun phrases.

Pathetic that so much political rambling can be used to teach people how to argue badly.

It's tough though. I can be only so political before I start crossing that 'lose my job' line. So far, though... I've been pretty close. So long as my kids don't report me, we'll keep on fighting the system the way the Tabacco companies do it: Get 'em While they're young!

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You're making me proud, man.

I always love using these, and used to carry a copy in my bag at all times.

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those are good. many of them are fallacies, which makes them better.

If you, or anyone else, wants to see fallacies, go here:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

I'd suggest having it open next time you listen to Bush talk about anything.

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Well said.
Our generation needs more of you to get us into action. It's so easy for us to be silent activists click-click-clicking away our anger.
Thank you for the motivation. :)

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Not a problem.

I'm planning on compiling a list, after questions from duosiceprincess, of ways that people can actually do something about all of this.

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that's a great idea.
have you read the book Ishmael? Daniel Quinn's commentary on the book was that it left reader's with the sense of wanting to make a change, but not knowing how. so many inspirational epiphanies have a great picture, but no way to get there.

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Such a great book!!!

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That would be useful. I feel sort of impotent just emailing congress people telling them they're stupid. Also a bit ineloquent.

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That's what I was going to ask you about - so what are *you* doing about it?

As an activist and all round shit-kicker, I feel like I generally ahve the right to ask people 'bout that kinda thing.

I was pointed here by my partner and I'm finding the discussion really interesting. Thanks much folks!

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Sorry, the whole stomach-flu thing took me out of the Doing Something loop for a bit.

I hope to have a post up in the next few days about it.

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Stupid stomach flu.

Glad to hear you're on the Doing Something train. I definitely would love to know what you and others are up to. People keep asking me what to do (as I seem to do all this Stuff) but other than write and call and speak out, at the moment, on this issue, I'm at a loss.

Seems like we need folks to speak out who can risk going to jail. I've got a little one, I can't currently risk it. But I'd be happy to do some support work if someone else wants to organize.

...tho I have no clue where you are, I"m in the Bay Area of CA

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I think it's just come out that the Republicans have known about the Mark Foley issue since 2001, which is just plain sick. While I agree that it detracts from the much more important issue of that malevolent bill, I'm starting to think that it could be the ticket to waking up those who have been slow to catch on to what's happening.

Honestly - what's more likely to get average Republicans to be angry at their government? Trying to explain legalese to them in order to convince them that the bill is scary beyond all belief and arguing what is and isn't torture/evil...or simply saying "That sicko queer guy tried to touch the wee-wees of all those little boys and the Republicans hid it for five years"?

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We need, then, to find a way to get local Republicans to realize this.

CORRUPTION WILL ALWAYS BE IN WASHINGTON, but if you kick the bastards out every so often, you can at least reduce the flow temporarily.

Attending party meetings and PEACEFULLY asking questions is going to be one of my next tricks.

Any other ideas on how to work this?

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I keep drawing blanks. I realize that part of my problem here is that I am very much used to NYC politics, where you talk to your neighbors on the stoop every day, talk to strangers in the street every day, and go in large groups to City Hall for important issues. Since my work hours are flexible, I was able to go downtown often to check in on how various bills were going and to make my voice heard. I haven't done that here and I need to.

How about we start going to these things together (bringing along any others who may wish to join), then we can all meet somewhere outside of the venue to discuss plans of action.

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Kung fu night next week, but we need some other things rolling too, since I don't want to piss on the fire of a night of movie fun.

I like the way you think. Also, you usually have good hair.

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I love your new icon... you are one handsome devil.

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All this raving and all you can say...is...

Well, thank you, darling. :*

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Well I was on the last minute of my break so all I could do was skim it, I have to read it tonight!! (you adorable creature you)

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Yup. Basically.

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How about at the polls too, since Tim Johnson (our House Rep) voted in favor of it?

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I'm planning something along those lines right now.

Next time he's in town, giving one of his little talks, I want to ask him exactly why he voted for this bill, but not that generally.

I'm going to ask him why he would pass a bill with these parts, and read specific portions.

And I'm going to ask local reporters to ask him the same thing.

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FWIW, I took a look at Tim Johnson's campaign contributors and made a post at
http://mrscake.livejournal.com/191488.html

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Awesome! That's going to be local information that I'm going to disseminate.

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Somebody else has a whole blog dedicated to Tim Johnson:
http://www.timjohnsonwatch.blogspot.com/

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I'm a fairly conservative guy.
After 9/11 I took some shots at paper targets with Osama's picture on them.
I do not believe the Geneva Convention protections extend to terrorists. Although I think a moral nation will extend them anyway.
I have been a registered Republican since the day I could vote.

But these clowns are not my Republican party. Moral individuals do not suspend habeas corpus. They do not deny a prisoner the right to be charged, obtain counsel, go before a judge and have the charges entered into the public record. This is the tipping point and anyone who supported this bill is sure as hell NOT getting my vote.

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That's what I was trying to get at with my post.

I don't agree with you about the Geneva Convention, but that's an area that people in different countries have been discussing since the thing was written. And yeah, it's the moral thing to do, but again I can see why some people would disagree.

The rest, though, is no longer about political parties. I wouldn't have changed a word if this had been a Democratic administration, as what's going on is an erosion of basic concepts that our country was built upon, as well as suspension of parts of the Constitution.

Things like that aren't just bad, or immoral, they're dangerous to everybody in this country and to everybody else in the world. After all, Americans aren't the only ones being killed by what's going on.

And you're right, these bastards aren't the Republican party. When I hear any of them or their supporters mention being "the party of Lincoln" I want to spit in their face.

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The rest, though, is no longer about political parties

Agreed. As you mentioned above there is an odd isolationist current running through America. I get regular "send us money" emails from the Republican machine. Most are the usual stuff; abortion, tax reform, gun ownership. Some I support, some I don't. But the new stuff really worries me. If it is to be believed, Mexicans are taking my job, selling my kid drugs and funneling the money to Al Qaida terror cells already in the US and ready to strike. It's like a bad Tom Clancy novel (in fact I think that IS a Tom Clancy novel, The Teeth of the Tiger, hmmm)

I think Mr. Lincoln is spinning in his grave. So is Gen. Eisenhower for that matter.

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"I do not believe the Geneva Convention protections extend to terrorists."

But how does one define 'terrorist' exactly? And then more importantly, how are you able to be 100% sure everyone you've detained as a terrorist is in fact a terrorist?

I think the fact that we have innocent people in jail goes to show that there isn't a foolproof system, so that if we torture those we label terrorists we will inevitably end up torturing completely innocent people.

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But how does one define 'terrorist' exactly?

A terrorist is a person who attacks non military targets in an attepmt to force a nation to submit or cease fighting. It should also include those folks who support people or groups that carry out terrorist attacks.

how are you able to be 100% sure everyone you've detained as a terrorist is in fact a terrorist?

You can't be. But that shouldn't stop us from trying to capture and detain terrorists. But we do need to make a genuine effort to minimize mistakes.

we will inevitably end up torturing completely innocent people.
I'm not a big fan of torture regardless of a persons guilt.

But for the sake of argument, let's say we did extend the Geneva Conventions to cover terrorists. If they are prisoners of war then we are allowed to detain them, without trial, until the end of the war. Since we are fighting a war on terrorism and not against a particular nation, how long do you think it will be before these hypothetical POW's are released?

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Hmm, my mistake, I assumed that when you mentioned not extending Geneva Convention policies to terrorists that you were refering to torture.

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